150K Before WOA 2010

[808Metal]

Yeah, I understand that too. But, for instance, you know where your daughters values lie. You know where you can trust her and where you cannot. It depends entirely on the person and I know a few people who, regardless of age, should never touch a bottle of alcohol or go near any women. It all depends entirely on the person.

Most mistakes should happen while the person is a child, where the individual can have the guidance and assistance from parents and other close relatives. If I made any of the mistakes I've made in the past year ten years from now I'd be entirely lost and wouldn't be able to fall back on my mom. Of course some mistakes don't go away as easily, but, that's the type of mistake that everybody should grow up knowing to avoid.

Exactly, and that's a parents job to teach. The sad part is many parents here are not doing their job. Too busy at work, socializing, or just plain wrapped up in their own things. The kids are left with too little guidance, that's why so many kids are screwed up here.

 

[xforeverxmetalx]

Exactly, and that's a parents job to teach. The sad part is many parents here are not doing their job. Too busy at work, socializing, or just plain wrapped up in their own things. The kids are left with too little guidance, that's why so many kids are screwed up here.

Yea... usually. My parents didn't really do much for me as a teenager on, besides teach me values from the church. Otherwise I don't think they knew what they were doing really, and it had some negative effects. But in that same way, I feel like I learned to take care of myself where they didn't. And thus I had no problem or fears going to Europe on my own.

 

[808Metal]

A child should be allowed to have a glass of wine or a beer with their parents at any age in my opinion (within reason). But it should be limited to with their parents and they should NOT be allowed to serve other children. 18 should be fine assuming the person has a designated driver if they are out of their house. But, I know people well beyond 25 who drive drunk every other day. It doesn't make it right, but it shows that some people are never mature enough to handle it. 21, 25, 18, 16, no matter what the age, people will be immature with it. I shouldn't have to be afraid of the cops if I decide, as an adult, to go out and have a good time and have a couple beers like I did tonight.

Well that's where self control comes into play. For you it's not a problem, for others it is. Responsible drinking should be taught, that's where the glass of wine at dinner with parents thing comes into play. And yes as i have said, i know of a number of people way over 21 who drink and drive.

 

[Deathbringer]

Yes that's true, the Europeans seem to have more self control and respect for themselves and others. Their parents seem to teach them responsible drinking habits. As for drunk driving problems they are everywhere, juts not as bad there. The whole drink to be cool and fit in is for sure am issue here. Don't know about Europe.

It seems very similar up in my area. I haven't seen much disrespect, but I have pretty much grown up in the metal crowd so that might be the difference. My parents never let me have alcohol until I hit 18. I didn't have my first beer until I was 19 because of personal beliefs. I think parents should be able within the law to teach those responsible habits without fearing that they will be prosecuted. And that if a person under 21 but over 18 wants a beer at a random show and won't be driving, what is the harm in having one beer or two? According to MA law I, after June 15th this year, could have four beers and drive legally, despite the fact I am physically unable to after two. I don't think that is right either.

 

[808Metal]

14's too young to tell really, I think.

Like my sister, for example, she's 16, but she's still in that bratty teenager mode. You can ask Holly. She's not ready I think, she's going to get a huge reality check when she leaves.

Of course you're supposed to prepare her... just I think it's better for parents to let go of their kids slowly so they can start making mistakes [inevitably] and learn from them while you're still there to guide them. So that by the time they're out on their own, it's not so much of a shock.

Yes exactly, experience is also a great teacher and she does and should learn from her own mistakes, but getting pregnant, crashing her car while driving drunk or O.D. on drug, is not a mistake I ever want her to learn from by experience. And yes we slowly give her more and more freedom.. We don't try to keep her in some kind of bubble.

 

[808Metal]

Yes, of course, and as a father you do the best job you feel is possible for your kids because you know how life is and you love them to death. Consequence doesn't stop no matter what the laws are, you have to trust that she will stay true to her values no matter what. I know most people my own age who had caring parents hold true to those values, and others respect those and hold true to theirs because that's how it goes. The most important thing is to be there while she experiments with who her adult self is, that's what my mom did for me despite the unwanted consequences (random guys she never met sleeping on the sofa when she woke up, etc) and that is the best thing she's ever done for me.

Well yes we do our best, we're parents, not perfect but we try, we make some mistakes along the way but we try to establish and practice good values for her to carry through life. That's all we can do, after that it's up to her. At 18 she can move out one her own if she chooses. We will always be there for her, but she will make her own choices and live with those choices.

 

[xforeverxmetalx]

Yes exactly, experience is also a great teacher and she does and should learn from her own mistakes, but getting pregnant, crashing her car while driving drunk or O.D. on drug, is not a mistake I ever want her to learn from by experience. And yes we slowly give her more and more freedom.. We don't try to keep her in some kind of bubble.

Yea, obviously not. You just have to teach them the right values and principles and hope they're mature enough to make the right choices based on that.

 

[808Metal]

Well you'd hope they did it that way, but I don't trust the government much. Personally I think it's 21 just because they know that a lot of kids aren't prepared at 18. Like I was saying earlier about parents holding on too tight and not letting them practice being independent before it matters.

Well our laws are flawed for sure, there's no real cut and dried age that it really is right for everyone.

 

[Deathbringer]

Well that's where self control comes into play. For you it's not a problem, for others it is. Responsible drinking should be taught, that's where the glass of wine at dinner with parents thing comes into play. And yes as i have said, i know of a number of people way over 21 who drink and drive.

Unfortunately, in my area especially, a parent who wishes to teach their child responsible drinking with a beer or glass of wine at dinner are no longer allowed to and can be prosecuted for doing so because of how strict the laws are. While I respect the idea of protecting people, it is not within the rights of the law to tell a parent how to teach their child responsibility or how to not. To give an individual a glass of wine for dinner, a beer to watch the superbowl, or champagne on new years is criminal if the individual is under 21, and that is the problem with the age limit. It's indiscriminate.

 

[808Metal]

I don't think it has anything to do with them being European itself though. It's the attitude toward alcohol in general that they have.

I think in Europe more people teach there kids and expect respect and decent behavior from each other than here. I saw that walking around in towns in Europe, much less obnoxious behavior, much less vandalism, I thin they teach respect a lot more than we do overall. I am in no way saying they are perfect and that nobody gets out of hand there, just at a much lower level. The behavior of drunken metalheads at WOA is far better than at say Ozzfest.

 

[808Metal]

Yea... usually. My parents didn't really do much for me as a teenager on, besides teach me values from the church. Otherwise I don't think they knew what they were doing really, and it had some negative effects. But in that same way, I feel like I learned to take care of myself where they didn't. And thus I had no problem or fears going to Europe on my own.

Well my thought is your parents established a real solid foundation for you at a young age, they really did it right, and your spirituality and levelheadedness is something your parents could see and put a lot of faith in. Just the way I see it anyway.

 

[xforeverxmetalx]

I think in Europe more people teach there kids and expect respect and decent behavior from each other than here. I saw that walking around in towns in Europe, much less obnoxious behavior, much less vandalism, I thin they teach respect a lot more than we do overall. I am in no way saying they are perfect and that nobody gets out of hand there, just at a much lower level. The behavior of drunken metalheads at WOA is far better than at say Ozzfest.

Dunno... I didn't notice anything different about Europe in that sense really. And Wacken actually sucked compared to the smaller fests I went to, as far as people behaving. The smaller ones were more comparable to the shows we have here at my regular venue. Yes we have sweaty violent drunks and stage divers that decide I make a nice cushion, but I've also seen a mosh pit that entirely stopped while a few people were having difficulty picking up a larger person who had fallen. It's the crowd of the bands themselves rather than the location, I think.

 

[xforeverxmetalx]

Well my thought is your parents established a real solid foundation for you at a young age, they really did it right, and your spirituality and levelheadedness is something your parents could see and put a lot of faith in. Just the way I see it anyway.

Yea, that's something they did do right, and it's what I hope to pass on to whatever future family I might have.

 

[Deathbringer]

Well yes we do our best, we're parents, not perfect but we try, we make some mistakes along the way but we try to establish and practice good values for her to carry through life. That's all we can do, after that it's up to her. At 18 she can move out one her own if she chooses. We will always be there for her, but she will make her own choices and live with those choices.

That makes all the different. Making sure the values are clear, but giving her the knowledge that you trust she will make the right choices, and will always be there for her regardless of the circumstance will make all the difference. My mom told me if I ever got pregnant under 18 that I would be getting a job and, despite the idea she would still support me, she would make me hire somebody (her, or somebody else) to watch the child and such. That made me feel I could turn to her if on the off chance I did make a poor choice based on the moment rather than what I knew was right. It never did happen, but looking back it kind of made me feel that it was my option, even though I knew it wasn't a good idea.

 

[808Metal]

It seems very similar up in my area. I haven't seen much disrespect, but I have pretty much grown up in the metal crowd so that might be the difference. My parents never let me have alcohol until I hit 18. I didn't have my first beer until I was 19 because of personal beliefs. I think parents should be able within the law to teach those responsible habits without fearing that they will be prosecuted. And that if a person under 21 but over 18 wants a beer at a random show and won't be driving, what is the harm in having one beer or two? According to MA law I, after June 15th this year, could have four beers and drive legally, despite the fact I am physically unable to after two. I don't think that is right either.

Unfortunately, in my area especially, a parent who wishes to teach their child responsible drinking with a beer or glass of wine at dinner are no longer allowed to and can be prosecuted for doing so because of how strict the laws are. While I respect the idea of protecting people, it is not within the rights of the law to tell a parent how to teach their child responsibility or how to not. To give an individual a glass of wine for dinner, a beer to watch the superbowl, or champagne on new years is criminal if the individual is under 21, and that is the problem with the age limit. It's indiscriminate.

Well as I said, the laws are flawed in some ways. Sadly some parents don't have enough common sense or self control to teach their kids how to drink responsibly. I can tell you that from my own personal experience, I don't mean speaking of me to my daughter. My dad let me have beer or wine if I asked at under 18, but I think he knew it would be OK because back then I could NOT stand the taste of it. I hated it then and could not understand why anyone would choose to drink stuff that tasted like it.