Line-up-Laberthread

[TheToecutter]

If you honestly can't see how that article is manipulative I'm not going to explain it to you.

 

[MetallKopp]

Why not? Perhaps I can understand the whole thing better afterwards. Don't you want to explain, or don't you can?

 

[TheToecutter]

OK. The very first line accuses him of hate speech. What has he said that's hate speech?

 

[Blake]

OK. The very first line accuses him of hate speech. What has he said that's hate speech?

http://takimag.com/article/surrendering_to_death_gavin_mcinnes/print#axzz48gKLoVO9
http://takimag.com/article/surrendering_to_death_gavin_mcinnes/print#axzz48gKLoVO9
This is the interview the article is talking about. Read it and check his arguments about the security staff and celebrating muslims...
He is telling lies and therefore it is hate speech.

 

[TheToecutter]

He saw it with his own eyes. Why would he lie? What does he possibly have to gain from saying something like that unless it was true?

 

[Blake]

He saw it with his own eyes. Why would he lie? What does he possibly have to gain from saying something like that unless it was true?

He wasn't the only person. Why didn't the other people say the same? Why didn't the police find proves for his arguments? Why didn't the press write about celebrating muslims?

Why should people say that Hillary Clinton leds a child-abuse ring in a pizza restaurant?

Sometimes people just lie.

 

[TheToecutter]

Maybe other people didn't say anything because they saw the reaction his comments got and they didn't want to be on the receiving end of the same sort of backlash.

When you create a culture where it's socially unacceptable to criticise Islam it makes it very difficult for people to speak out against it.

So he's just lying for the sake of it? Pretty much committing career suicide just so he can spread "hate speech"? Come on get serious.

 

[Blake]

Maybe other people didn't say anything because they saw the reaction his comments got and they didn't want to be on the receiving end of the same sort of backlash.

When you create a culture where it's socially unacceptable to criticise Islam it makes it very difficult for people to speak out against it.

So he's just lying for the sake of it? Pretty much committing career suicide just so he can spread "hate speech"? Come on get serious.

Phil Anselmo is destroying his career by raising his right arm (I don't know the englisch Word for this) on concerts.
In the UK, a lot of politics destroyed their career by telling lies about the EU ("We send the EU 350€ per week").


You are allowed to critizise everyone in Europe. You just need good arguments.

 

[TheToecutter]

I agree about Phil, which UK politician has destroyed their career though? Not sure I can think of one.

I disagree, the culture of political correctness, especially around Islam, means people are scared to criticise it because they are worried about being labelled a racist ot an islamophobe.

Maybe Muslims were celebrating on the street after the attack. Some of them believe non Muslims should be killed, that's just a fact. The Koran says so.

Either everything is open to questioning and criticism or nothing is. Calling something hate speech just because you don't agree with or like it is a dangerous way to go in my opinion.

 

[Blake]

I agree about Phil, which UK politician has destroyed their career though? Not sure I can think of one.

I disagree, the culture of political correctness, especially around Islam, means people are scared to criticise it because they are worried about being labelled a racist ot an islamophobe.

Maybe Muslims were celebrating on the street after the attack. Some of them believe non Muslims should be killed, that's just a fact. The Koran says so.

Either everything is open to questioning and criticism or nothing is. Calling something hate speech just because you don't agree with or like it is a dangerous way to go in my opinion.

IIn my opinion Nigel Farage destroyed his political career by lying about the EU and stepping back just after Brexit vote.

If muslims were celebrating on the street, you would have read anything about this in the news. Can you show me one reliable newspaper article about this?

I call something hate speech if someone says something bad about someone without any evidence. Jesse Hughes did this.

 

[TheToecutter]

You obviously don't trust him which is fair enough but he is an eye witness at a major crime so I don't believe he would lie. We're obviously not going to agree though.

Show me a newspaper that reliably reports the truth and I will give you a medal. I don't think newspapers can be used to judge the truth.

And farage has done very well. He's achieved his life's work, his profile has never been higher and I'm sure he's made lots and lots of money off the back of brexit through TV appearances etc.

 

[Ape]

Auch wenn ich das hier mit einigermaßen regem Interesse verfolge, aber kann man das nicht in nem anderen Thread ausführlich diskutieren?
ich glaube die beiden Standpunkte lassen sich eh nur schwer zusammenbringen.

 

[MetallKopp]

OK. The very first line accuses him of hate speech. What has he said that's hate speech?

Yes, it IS hate speech. He does not necessarily need to lie to do this. Ok, celebrating muslims in the streets, the things he claimed to have seen, he is the only one who saw this and we are widely unable to prove whether it is true or not.
But it also doesn't matter. He's blaming all Muslims in the world for this. He claims, Islam itself would be a problem. He claims that whoever is muslim, succumbs to an ideology of violence and oppression.

What I'm saying is, yes, Islam has a problem with extremists. Yes, there are countries that are traditionally islamic, and their actions (or non-actions) cause extremism to spread even further.
But saying that Islam itself is the reason for this is serious bull. It is the same as blaming Christianity for the minority of Christian extremists that are out there and commencing terrorist attacks. It's just that most of these attacks are invisible to us, because they don't happen in our countries. God's Army in Myanmar, for instance. Or Rachelle Shannon. Or the Cu Clux Clan. No one would seriously claim that Christianism caused this and therefore should be driven out of our countries.
Islamic terrorists are killing people all over the world. Do you know who is their biggest group of victims? Muslims. It is not an "Islam against humanity" war. This is much more complicated.

Long story short. Anyone who is willing to criticize Islam the right way, trying to resolve the issues we have, can do this without being stigmatized as whatsoever. But anyone who claims that muslims in general are people to be afraid of, is nothing but a spreader of fear. This is hatespeech at its core!

http://takimag.com/article/surrendering_to_death_gavin_mcinnes/print#axzz48gKLoVO9
This is the interview the article is talking about. Read it and check his arguments about the security staff and celebrating muslims...
He is telling lies and therefore it is hate speech.

Even more, THIS interview is manipulative! The "journalist" isn't asking any critical questions, or even neutral ones. The interviewer is manipulative, you just see that he completely agrees with Hughes and just asks questions that would fortify the message Hughes has.

He saw it with his own eyes. Why would he lie? What does he possibly have to gain from saying something like that unless it was true?

What did Hitler possibly have to gain from saying something bad about Jews unless it was true?

So, leave aside Hitler. You are claiming that we are being lied to. Yes, people lie. Yes, we're being manipulated. What makes you so sure that it is IMPOSSIBLE that it's the other way round? That you believe the wrong people? Just because they're musicians? Just because they're conservative, because conservatives don't lie? Or just because Hughes claims he's been high on speed since he was a kid?

Auch wenn ich das hier mit einigermaßen regem Interesse verfolge, aber kann man das nicht in nem anderen Thread ausführlich diskutieren?
ich glaube die beiden Standpunkte lassen sich eh nur schwer zusammenbringen.

Nein. Off-Topic ist weithin akzeptiert in diesem Forüm.

 

[Deuce]

Nein. Off-Topic ist weithin akzeptiert in diesem Forüm.

Aber es gehört ja wohl eindeutig inzwischen ins internationale Forum und nicht ins deutsche Forum.

 

[TheToecutter]

Parts of the ideology of Islam involves violence and oppression. That what causes maniacs like this to carry out these attacks.
Islam has a major problem that needs to be addressed.

I agree that interview is completely bias, anyone who has seen or heard anything produced by gavin mcinnes knows his views on Islam. Always important to remember who is writing an article and what their motive is.

And again to answer your last point it's all about motive. What is hughes motivation for lying? I don't believe he said these things just for the sake of it, what would be the purpose? To gain some credibility with racists? That seems more far fetched to me than his account of what happened.

I really don't like the argument that Muslims are the biggest victims though. Try telling that to the families of all those who have died in Europe as a result of Islamic terrorism in the past few years.