Circle Pits and Wall of Death

Dieses Thema im Forum "English News" wurde erstellt von Wacken-News, 19. August 2010.

  1. Wacken-News

    Wacken-News Newsbot

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    Dear visitors,

    This years ban of Circle Pits and Walls of Death lead to discussions in our...

    Weiterlesen...
     
  2. Jotne

    Jotne Newbie

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    Let me first say that I can appreciate the reasoning behind this decision; with the Love Parade disaster fresh in memory, I can see how people involved in security decisions would be nervous and want to play it safe, especially with all the bruises and minor injuries that occur in pits and walls of death.

    That being said, the ban is ridiculous. It's a misguided decision that shows no appreciation for the metal scene and our culture and mindset whatsoever. They do come with a certain risk, yes; nobody can guarantee that there will never be serious injuries or even deaths. The risk of that happening, however, is remote. When someone falls down, you pick them up. If someone looks injured, you shield them and yell for help. This is as much a part of the metal (and WOA) culture as the pits and walls themselves, which is why these activities tend to be so much safer at metal shows than with pop and hipster crowds etc.

    It's also insane to let that Love Parade idiocy affect decisions concerning WOA: The two festivals are completely different in every way. Average age, drug use and mentality among the participants, festival duration, number of participants etc. Wacken is safer in every way than that circus, and has always been. What happened there could never happen at WOA, plain and simple. I may be wrong about this, but I think that if you look at the numbers concerning injuries, fights, drug use and other health & safety concerns, WOA is one of the best festivals around.

    One more thing: There is a reason we do these things. The music is loud and aggressive, we've had a few beers and we're happy and excited. We want to move, to get some of that energy out of our system. Deny people that, and they'll have to do that some other way, and they'll be unhappy and frustrated as well. Maybe I'm just being negative, but I think there will be more fights, damage to property and such if you stick with this decision. Personally, I'd think a bit of rough but harmless play would be better than Beer Garden brawls.

    In the end though, you can disregard all those arguments, because there is really only one that is relevant: If we can't have fun, we won't come. I'm not buying my ticket for next year until I know there will be pits, walls and crowdsurfing. We want it, the bands want it, it's part of our culture. Ban it, and you might as well install chairs and just run metallica and other mainstream concerts for pussies in blazers, because the metalheads will go where the metal is.
     
  3. Sam88

    Sam88 Newbie

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    What a wonderful comment. Thank you so much for that Jotne. I couldn't have expressed what i'm thinking better myself.
    You are perfectly right when you say that "The two festivals are completely different in every way. Average age, drug use and mentality among the participants, festival duration, number of participants etc. Wacken is safer in every way than that circus, and has always been". This is such a great argument! This festival is known for its peacefulness, why destroy that by turning positive energy into aggressiveness?

    I must say i do disagree with you on the crowd surfing part. One can avoid mosh pits and circle pits without much effort. One could to a certain extend predict the area where they appear as well, and thus avoid those. Crowd surfing on the other hand i find completely unnecessary. Constantly having boots banged against your head is just very annoying and dangerous (you don't see them coming, and not everyone is kind enough to warn the people in front of them -> random people standing around, whereas in mosh pits etc. mostly people who know what counts will join thus know how to help/react) . Also due to the fact that smaller people (such as my little sister that has been to Wacken 3 times now) really have issues with crowd surfers. I constantly have to protect her from some idiots overhead. And there is no way she can avoid them or predict where they will appear.

    Finally I must note that I'm not completely against rules, and I'm not completely against some restrictions, since after all the medical personnel will be bearing all the work in case of any injuries. But they have to be reasonable, an outright ban is going completely overboard.
    If the ban will not be lifted, many people will reconsider whether they will return in 2011. Those will be the people who believe in the Metal Spirit, to which mosh pits and circle pits belong. If we drive those people away who will be left? Antisocial and egoistic pricks that do not understand anything about Metal? Will that make the Festival safer or will that destroy the positive atmosphere and turn Wacken in some mindless smash and burn festival?
     
  4. domunited

    domunited W:O:A Metalhead

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    I have to agree with both statements. Banning mosh pits, circle pits and walls of death at Wacken would be ridiculous. Without that W:O:A won't be a metal festival and the motto "FASTER, HARDER, LOUDER" will be very ironic. All metal fans know where the mosh pits take place and if they don't want to be part of them, they know where to take their place in order to avoid them. Moshing is part of the metal spirit and moshing in Wacken is the most friendly mosh that I took part in. There is no better place to do that. Everyone respects the other person. When one falls down, all stop and pick him/her up. That's what metal is all about!

    About crowdsurfing though, I'm a bit undecided yet. When I was at the barriers all day on the day when Maiden played, the crowdsurfing got very annoying. It was distracting you from concentrating on the show and when Iron Maiden are playing, you don't want to miss a second. Unfortunately, I lost many seconds. ;)
    However, I took part in crowdsurfing the next day and I must say that it was fun. Being on top of everyone you can see the whole crowd and the feeling of getting nearer to the stage is awesome :D
    However, there were some people punching me as they were unhappy with me being on top of them (that sounds wrong ;p). Also, on occasions I couldn't control my feet as people were throwing me instead of passing me on to the front and, thus, I would hit people with my boots on their heads... I felt bad about that. Therefore, I think, to fix the problem of crowdsurfing, people need to be more active by informing the person in front and definitely not throwing the person to the front as that's how injuries take place...
     
  5. Devil's advocate

    Devil's advocate Newbie

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    well... hello everybody, i decided to register to give my two cents to this interesting discussion.
    first of all i apologize if my english is not perfect, i'm from italy...i hope i'll be able to make my thoughts and feelings clear for everybody of you :)

    well... i've been attending to metal concerts for 16 years, many users here for more time,so i think i'm talking to people who knows what a metal show pit is, and how to menage.
    i think that WOD, CP etc are part of the show, heavy metal is a very particular genre of music, musicians and crowd are in an energy exchange during the show... i think it's quite impossible to imagine a metal show with standing people... it's "part of our culture" as the first (perfect!!) comment says...
    knowing that orgas worry about people safety is great, but i think that walls of death and pits are not a safety matter. metal people is one of the most "disciplinated" crowd ever... we help each other if someone fells down, we create a safe area if something is lost etc.
    to tel the truth, in circle pits, mosh pits etc i feel safe, COMPLETELY safe, as i know that the other guys will help me (as it happened) if i'll have some problem.
    and also i have to notice that i never got in a wall of death or circle pit i didnt' want to join, NEVER.
    if i feel tired, if i don't want to join, i move away (a few meters are enough to be completely safe!) and everything is ok!
    the evidence of this is that frequentely also my girlfriend joins me in the middle of the crowd, but never joins me in circle pits, as she doesn't like that... and later we look at the show toghether again, wth no problems.

    i know that germany has been severely shocked by the Duisburg tragedy, everybody of us have been, i guess... but it's completely different! 75000 people vs 1400000... different mind attitude, different drug beahviour,different venue (wacken camp is not a tunnel!).
    nobody can compare these two things,in my opinion...

    well,that's my thought about this... i think that many poeple would be very disappointed by a ban...you can SUGGEST not to join walls and pits,but not ban...it would be IMPOSSIBLE to stop for the security guys,so the only result the ban would get would be make people angry and unleash more pits and walls :)

    i hope my post is quite clear for everybody of you :)
     
  6. fen_fire

    fen_fire Newbie

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    devil's advocate:
    "... if i feel tired, if i don't want to join, i move away (a few meters are enough to be completely safe!) and everything is ok! ..."

    --> my brother came into a WOD and he said, he was somewhere in the middle of all these people and there was no fast way out, because they all stood so close. so the only possibility was left, was running with the crowd, not to get lost, fall to the ground or whatever. so he wasn't injured that much, having a bloddy nose and lips only.

    my opinion is that WOD are quite dangerous things. I can't state much about circle pits, never had to take part in one, but I haven't heard too much about injuries compared to WOD. crowdsurfers aren't that dangerous, i think they are simply nasty sometimes ...
     
  7. Devil's advocate

    Devil's advocate Newbie

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    sorry for your brother,really.
    it's the first time i hear something like that!
     
  8. Rasmus

    Rasmus Newbie

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    no, no and no.

    I understand your worries because of the techno tragedy this year in germany ( I forgot the name of the festival ). But Wacken is really something totally different... I've been at the festival for three years, and I would not come next year if you ban the moshpits, crowdsurfs, cirklepits and wall of deaths. It would be so silly, its a part of being at a metal concert, and if you dont want to particpate in the wall of death, you have the choice to walk 5-10 meters away from the place, and you'll be as safe as it.

    When I'm in a wall of death, cirklepit, moshpit or crowdsurfing whatsoever, I feel as safe as if i was standing still drinking my beer.
    Just that the upstanding is 100 times as fun, I enjoy the pits, and It's no big danger, I have seen some guys with some broken bones, once or twice, but that has happened like like 5 times out of the well I dont even have a cifre on it. maybe 800 concerts?

    Let me give you an example of a pit i were in at El Niño this year, a wall of death were about to take place and I wanted to join!
    I felt the adrenaline beginning to come, I smiled and we ran, into eachother, Unluckily i fell down to the ground, and before i even were down there for hmm what? 3-4 seconds, I was up again, without more than a footstep on my left arm.

    I hope you listen to my words(and others) when I tell you that WOD, cpits and mosh and crowdsurfing is a part of the metalculture..
    And wacken for that sake. 21 years of wall of deaths, cirklepits, crowdsurfs and moshpits.

    I apologise for my semi-bad english, I hope you'r able to read through.

    Thank you for letting me speak.
    Bye.
     
  9. celtic_steel

    celtic_steel Newbie

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    WOD/CP

    Hey there!

    In my opinion, this is a really worthy discussion!

    Maybe I'm too old for that shit (only 30), but I really fuckin hate stuff like WODs or CPs! I can only speak for myself, but the reason that makes me visiting Wacken every year is that I wanna SEE the bands on these overwhelming stages!

    If I'd be a hardcore- or new metal-guy and wanted to have a clash or a fight, I'd be going to watch my bands on their regular tours in clubs or halls! Actually,there are people who come to Wacken for the same reason - having a good time! That's why I visit Wacken every summer...

    And I'm NOT having a good time if there's some fighting going on in front of the stages. So either bands with this attitude shouldn't be confirmed anymore, or people start respecting the ones beside 'em!

    I call to all those 'young ones', keep your fists and feet in your pocket or on the ground and just relish your favourite band's gig!

    Regarding the Duisburg desaster, I can say that I ultimately rely on the Wacken crew! I've been kind of nervous when I went to Wacken this year, but again the crew made me feel fuckin' safe like they did every year before!!

    ALL HAIL TO WACKEN!!!

    ALL HAIL TO HEAVY METAL!!!!

    Chris
     
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 21. August 2010
  10. Jotne

    Jotne Newbie

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    We're ALL there to have a good time, Chris. Moshing doesn't mean fighting, at least not at Wacken. From what I've understood, European pits in general tend to be less violent than in the US. People just run around and bump into each other, I've never been in a pit where people actually tried to hurt one another, quite the contrary. If that had been the case here I would agree with you, but it's just harmless fun. Simply a different way of enjoying a good show! :)
     
  11. Mael

    Mael Member

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    Not in generally. You have enough of those violent dancers, also in europe. Pretty annoying fuckers :mad:
     
  12. ryanjvh

    ryanjvh Member

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    This year was my first year at Wacken and nothing can compare to how I felt for the 5 days I was there. This topic came upon my camp area so it's nothing new. There's a few things I'd like to address about the subject.

    1) We all know what happened at that techno festival in Germany a few weeks prior to Wacken. As far as I know the way those people died were the organizer's fault. From what I remember reading about the event the reason why those people died was because they oversold the festival by a lot, and when I mean a lot, I mean A LOT. Thus, (if I'm correct from reading about it), there were bleachers that collapsed from there being too many people.

    Well luckily at Wacken the closest thing we have to bleachers is the Jager Sky View attraction which is very safe. Wacken never over sells because it doesn't do box office tickets, therefore the incident at that techno festival shouldn't be compared to something that were to happen at Wacken.

    2) People have already said it before on here, if anything CROWDSURFING is more dangerous than WOD or CP. Using examples that others have used already, if someone falls down there will be people to pick that person right up. Wall of Deaths I'm not such a fan of so I don't have much to say on that matter. I'll admit when people hit you as they're crowdsurfing it pisses me off. Especially when they fall down on you. Luckily, Wacken has the best security I've ever seen and they take action ASAP.

    I would understand banning crowd surfing because during Arch Enemy I saw maybe 8 different people who were carried away on a stretcher from crowd surfing. Of course, people get hurt in mosh pits and what not, but that's something people should already be aware of, and luckily you have others watching out for you.

    If someone isn't a fan of circle pits or WoD's there's one very simple solution to it. Don't go to the middle of the crowd area because that's where it tends to take place.

    During Endstille these two 15 year old kids were trying to start a mosh pit near me and everyone else (and we were standing in this area because we weren't interested in the pit), so I ended up grabbing them and pushing them over to where the real pit was. It made me think of a really stupid, yet maybe doable idea. Maybe it would be possible to have designated areas at each stage for WOD and CP? It would give people who aren't interested an idea of where to stand so there nowhere near it. Just throwing that out there.

    Thank you Wacken for reaching out to the fans and meeting halfway with them instead of doing what you think is best for us. Instead of thinking, you'll know what is best for us now!

    I put my suggestion in BOLD and UNDERLINE because if the organizers of Wacken are looking for ways to defend keeping CPs and WODs they could at least have probable solutions instead of just giving reasons why not to ban them. Makes a big difference from things I've experience in the past. All about comprimising.

    Ryan Vander Hooven
     
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 22. August 2010
  13. redtalon

    redtalon Newbie

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    If you are going to ban CP and WOD, where does it stop? Ban over drinking maybe? Or stage driving in case someone gets a boot in the head?

    CP and WOD are and have been part of metal since the 80s Thrash movement.

    Banning them has made me think twice about going to Wacken, the first time I have ever felt like this in 10 years of going to the event.

    We want a metal festival, with everything that goes with it, Wacken is not my mother!!!!!!
     
  14. emdtmt

    emdtmt Newbie

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    I will vote NO on banning moshpits and wall of death, it's the spirit of the festival. And at Wacken it feels really safe !

    If you fall you will have 3-4 people helping you up in less then 1 second.

    Keep wacken hard and loud !
     
  15. xforeverxmetalx

    xforeverxmetalx W:O:A Metalgod

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    I personally would like to know exactly why they were banned. Security reasons obviously, but is it because they had the Love Parade incident in mind or was the timing just a coincidence? If not, I think the security team making the decision should have known long ago that large amounts of people crammed into a small space can cause problems. The Love Parade doesn't change the risk of this year's fest compared to last year's one bit. So if the ban resulted out of fear or realization that crowds are problems, then measures should have been considered long before now.

    About circle pits and walls of death themselves, I also find them pretty easy to avoid, especially walls of death. It's also fairly easy to predict where they occur and to move away from them; you don't even have to go far. Moshing itself is of course risky by nature but it's all in fun. You shouldn't involve yourself in one without realizing what can happen. But about 99% of the injuries are minor. I also agree that pits are part of metal shows and not only will the ban upset people and have them reconsider going, but they're going to happen anyway. I highly doubt the ban will have any effect on the actual amount of people the medical staff has to take care of. People will mosh if they want, and in those thick crowds, how are security going to enforce it?
     

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